Curse

reaper with no name · Jun 29, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

I've been using a sundering scythe for a while now, but today while looking through the wiki I discovered that it says vampiric adds more damage than sundering, which surprised me because I thought the whole point of the two was that sundering added more damage and vampiric had more defense and aggro control (5 lifestealing per hit with IAS > -1 degen, and degen makes you more attractive to monsters).

So, here's my question: has anyone actually done the math to confirm this? Vampiric adds +5 damage, obviously, but the sundering is more complicated.

Megas XLR · Jun 29, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

My friend made me switch from Sundering to Vampiric about a year ago and I don't regret it at all. Sundering is random, but it does have good spiking damage. I read that Vampiric will come out on top with constant DPS though.

IronSheik · Jun 29, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Well considering this, it takes 25 Hits to effectively have one "Double damage" Hit 100% Penetration.

Activating 20% of time, that's 1 in 5 hits for 20% extra damage

I've no idea on the effects with crap like Strength of Honor or GDW

But I've heard vampiric comes out on top for DPS.

FoxBat · Jun 29, 2009, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Vampiric has better DPS in almost all cases. Even on scythes with holy might and assassin constacrits, vampiric DPS still comes out on top. You'd need something strange like vow of strength builds to cross that gap.

AKB48 · Jun 29, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Vamp is generally better with the constant 3 life stealing each time you hit, while sundering only gives you 1/5 chance of armor ignoring damage each time you hit. Use vamp while fighting but switch back to sundering to prevent the -1 degen if you don't have a cheap self heal.

Kendel · Jun 29, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

I thought Sundering came out out on top for Scythe wielders, its just abit more unpredictable.

Either way surely theres no way Vamp is better on a Crit Sin. I recall a quick test using Wild Blow and 16 Strength upped damage by more than 25 so 20% AP definatly would. Although it doesn't stack with Judges Insight does it? I never remember how AP stacks.

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 29, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Vamp=better dps and can still possibly heal too. Aggro has nothing to do with it unless you arent hitting a thing

Celtus · Jun 29, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

vamp tends to be more reliable for getting damage across, id recommend it in every build unless youre using a conjure build or vow of strength (which really shines when sundering triggers).

i always have both readily equipped, but almost always end up using vamp when im trying to kill someone. gl

Slasher of Darkness · Jun 29, 2009, 05:41 AM // 05:41

uhh..sorry if I'm a bit going offtopic but does anyone even use a zealous scythe anymore? or all gone to sundering/vamp? Is it even worth using zealous?

Bob Slydell · Jun 29, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slasher of Darkness

uhh..sorry if I'm a bit going offtopic but does anyone even use a zealous scythe anymore? or all gone to sundering/vamp? Is it even worth using zealous?

My Dervish uses Suli's scythe.

subarucar · Jun 29, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slasher of Darkness

uhh..sorry if I'm a bit going offtopic but does anyone even use a zealous scythe anymore? or all gone to sundering/vamp? Is it even worth using zealous?

I always have a zealous weapon in one of my 4 slots, really nice if you need more energy for your build or get hit by some energy denail skills.

reaper with no name · Jun 29, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Honestly, I was hoping someone would post some numbers or something, but it seems it was not to be. So, I had to do it myself. The results were that with AoHM and Asuran Scan (max ranks in both), the sundering does slightly more damage than the vampiric. However, if the ranks aren't max (or close to it), the vampiric wins out slightly in damage. Furthermore, even under such ideal circumstances, the sundering only wins out in primary target damage; the vampiric beats it against adjacent foes. Plus it has a healing factor about 3/4 of the time (HoF is up for 21 sec then down for 9 while it recharges), unless you're hitting multiple foes (at which point you're definitely getting more health than you're losing).

The advantages aren't much, but why not go with the best?

On a related note, anyone got a perfect vampiric scythe snathe they'd be willing to part with?

Sirius-NZ · Jul 01, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I pretty much always use a zealous scythe if I'm running Melandru. For that matter I usually use a zealous scythe anyway, but when energy management is an issue it helps cover the shortfall from Mysticism.

FoxBat · Jul 01, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Asuran Scan

Didn't do the math with that one

oh well.

Keep in mind that HM enemies have a ton of armor though... you're probably only doing better against lvl 20 targets.

Improvavel · Jul 02, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ

I pretty much always use a zealous scythe if I'm running Melandru. For that matter I usually use a zealous scythe anyway, but when energy management is an issue it helps cover the shortfall from Mysticism.

For Melandru I use a Travelers Staff to cast stuff then switch to vamp scythe. Only seem to need zealous if have to refresh Melandru while fighting, if precasted vamp and attackers insight work fine.

Verene · Jul 02, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slasher of Darkness

uhh..sorry if I'm a bit going offtopic but does anyone even use a zealous scythe anymore? or all gone to sundering/vamp? Is it even worth using zealous?

Zealous scythes FTW. That's all I use now, unless I'm running a build that's D/E and I'm using a Conjure.

Between Vamp and Sundering, though, I'd go Vampiric, myself.

reaper with no name · Jul 02, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Ok, I went back and did a little more number crunching, and I discovered something very interesting. The advantage of a sundering scythe over a vampiric scythe when they are paired with AoHM and Asuran Scan is actually greatest at low ALs. In other words, the higher the enemy's armor, the more effective a vampiric mod is relative to a sundering mod. At a hypothetical 140 AL (not sure if anything actually has that much armor), a vampiric scythe manages to outdamage the sundering scythe at the only thing it's good for; single target damage.

In case anyone is interested, here's the crunchy goodness.

Assuming 16 scythe mastery, max ranks in Kurzick and Asuran titles
Raw Damage (not crit) = 9 to 41 = 25
Raw Damage (crit) = 41*1.41 = 57.81
Crit rate = 22.3%
Raw Damage = 25*.777 + 57.81*.223 = 32.317
Damage Rating = 5*(20/2 + 2) + 2*(16-[20/2 + 2]) + 32 = 100
Armor Effect = 2^( [DR-AL(1-AP)] /40)
Damage Multipliers = 1.75*1.15*1.2 (asuran scan, inscription, and customization)
Effective Damage (Vampiric) = RD*DMulti*AE + 5
20% chance of sundering with sundering scythe
Effective Damage (Sundering) = RD*DMulti*(AE[sunder]*.2 + AE[nosunder]*.8)

60 AL
-----
Vampiric = 161.0893229
Sundering = 163.3051579

70 AL
-----
Vampiric = 136.2549521
Sundering = 138.4624405

80 AL
-----
Vampiric = 115.3718187
Sundering = 117.4247525

90 AL
-----
Vampiric = 97.81126668
Sundering = 99.60579866

100 AL
------
Vampiric = 83.04466145
Sundering = 84.5100929

110 AL
------
Vampiric = 70.62747604
Sundering = 71.71883062

120 AL
------
Vampiric = 60.18590935
Sundering = 60.87796688

130 AL
------
Vampiric = 51.40563334
Sundering = 51.68815546

140 AL
------
Vampiric = 44.02233073
Sundering = 43.89625724

Interestingly, as the armor increases, the vampiric mod becomes better, because the constant 5 lifesteal from it becomes a larger and larger percentage of the overall damage. Sundering scythes have no such edge, so while they are penetrating more armor as time goes on, this only serves to delay the inevitable. 100% of the weapon is still doing less damage, instead of 94% or 95% of it. Eventually, the armor-ignoring 5 lifesteal outweighs the benefits of occasional 20% armor penetration (remember, it only happens 1/5 of the time).

Of course, the more damage multipliers you stack on, the better sundering mods do, because of the synergy between damage multipliers and armor penetration. By contrast, using less multipliers, lower title ranks, or having lower scythe mastery makes the vampiric mod better, because the constant 5 life-steal becomes a slightly larger factor in damage.